Institut Gustave Courbet, Ornans, France.
Special publication May 2014 'L'Origine du monde laid bare'
Interview with artist Lilianne Milgrom
Pourquoi avez-vous choisi de copier L’Origine du monde ? Que représente pour vous cette œuvre ?
WHY DID YOU CHOOSE TO COPY l’ORIGINE DU MONDE (THE ORIGIN OF THE WORLD? WHAT DOES THIS WORK REPRESENT FOR YOU ?
It was actually a girlfriend of mine who said that I did not choose this painting – it chose me. She is absolutely correct. I originally had no intention at all of copying L’Origine du monde, but when I stood in front of the painting I knew that there was a special connection between us. I think you could say it was a coup de foudre. Courbet has presented us with an unsettling and paradoxically complex image of Woman. For me, L’Origine represents this physical and spiritual duality.
Vous dites être la première copiste officiel de L’Origine du monde, pendant combien de temps avez-vous copier l’œuvre ? Combien d’heures par jour ?
YOU SAY YOU ARE THE FIRST OFFICIAL COPYIST OF L’ORIGINE DU MONDE. HOW MUCH TIME DID YOU SPEND COPYING THE WORK ? HOW MANY HOURS PER DAY ?
Yes, the Bureau of Copiestes told me that no-one before me had requested permission to copy L’Origine du monde, which surprised me. I spent seven weeks at the d’Orsay Museum, and I worked about four hours a day, five days a week. The museum has a rule that copyists cannot work after one o’clock, so even if I was not ready to stop, I had to complete my work at that time every day.
Quels ont été les conditions du Musée d’Orsay pour vous autoriser en tant que copistes ? Le format de votre copie est-il identique à l’originale ? Avez-vous enquêter sur la technique de Courbet avant de copier ?
WHAT WERE THE CONDITIONS SET BY THE D’ORSAY MUSEUM FOR AUTHORIZING YOU AS A COPYIST ? WAS THE FORMAT YOU WORKED ON IDENTICAL TO THE ORIGINA ? DID YOU INVESTIGATE COURBET’S TECHNIQUES BEFORE STARTING YOUR COPY ?
There is quite a rigorous procedure involved in getting permission to copy a work at the museum. One has to submit documents regarding one’s professional status, a letter from one’s embassy (if you are a foreign visitor), signed contracts and various other papers. The museum has a strict rule that the size of the copy must be at least fifteen percent smaller or larger than the original, and then they stamp the museum’s logo on the blank canvas to prevent any chance of forgery. As far as investigating Courbet’s techniques, I must admit I was totally ignorant about his methods when I began my copy.
Quand et comment avez-vous eu connaissance du tableau ? L’aviez-vous vu à New-York en 1988 (Brooklyn) ou à Ornans en 1991 ?
WHEN AND HOW DID YOU ENCOUNTER THE PAINTING ? DID YOU VIEW IT FIRST IN BROOKLYN IN 1988 OR IN ORNANS IN 1991 ?
As an artist, I had seen images of this iconic painting over the years, but I had never seen it with my own eyes until I saw it at the d’Orsay Museum in 2011.
Quelles ont été les réactions des visiteurs en vous voyant en plein travail ? Vous posait-il des questions ? Avez-vous été confronté à des réactions extrémistes ? Y-a-t-il un échange avec un visiteur qui vous a particulièrement touché ?
WHAT WERE THE REACTIONS OF VISITORS TO SEEING YOU WORKING ? DID THEY ASK QUESTIONS ? DID YOU EXPERIENCE ANY EXTREME REACTIONS ? WAS THERE A PARTICULAR EXCHANGE THAT TOUCHED YOU ?
The reaction was usually one of great interest and curiosity, and sometimes shock or amusement. The visitors asked me a lot of different questions, but many people wanted to know why I was copying this particular painting. There were several incidents with men who made insinuating comments to me but in general, the public was very respectful.
The one incident that I remember very well–and it is included in my documentary–was a French grandmother who brought her granddaughter. She pointed out to the little girl that the painting represented where all babies come from. Her granddaughter said « No ! Mommy had a Caesarian ! » It was a charming moment.
Les personnes qui ont échangé avec vous étaient-elles plutôt des femmes ou des hommes, de quel age….quel type de public ? Pour vous dire quoi ?
THE PEOPLE YOU HAD EXCHANGES WITH, WERE THEY MOSTLY MEN OR WOMEN, WHAT AGES…WHAT TYPE OF PUBLIC ? WHAT DID THEY SAY TO YOU ?
Actually, I would say that I engaged with people of all ages, men and women, people who were knowledgeable about art, and those who were not. But it seemed that women were less intimidated to talk with me. We discussed what this painting represented to them and whether they could identify with it.
Les questions posaient-elles sur votre travail de copistes ou sur l’œuvre elle-même et ce qu’elle représente pour un homme ou pour une femme ?
WERE THE QUESTIONS MAINLY ABOUT YOUR WORK AS A COPYIST OR ABOUT THE WORK ITSELF AND WHAT IT REPRESENTS FOR BOTH MEN AND WOMEN ?
At first, people asked me why I was copying this particular painting. And then I would open the discussion up to their responses to L’Origine itself.
Le fait que vous soyez en train de copier cette œuvre pendant les heures d’ouverture, cela a –t-il amené plus de visiteurs à la regarder ? ou à passer plus de temps devant le tableau ?
THE FACT THAT YOU SPENT HOURS COPYING THIS WORK – DID THIS CAUSE VISITORS TO LOOK AT YOU ? OR TO PASS MORE TIME IN FRONT OF THE WORK ?
I can definitely tell you that copying this painting in public was a type of performance art. I did not anticipate that I would be the source of so much attention. It occurred to me that there was an interesting dynamic here – Courbet gazed upon his model when he painted L’Origine, and I, in turn, was casting my gaze upon his painting, and now the museum visitors were looking at me copying his copy of the model. Interesting, isn’t it ?
Avez-vous gardé des contacts avec vos rencontres ?
DO YOU STILL MAINTAIN ANY CONTACT WITH THOSE WHO YOU MET DURING YOUR TIME COPYING ?
Not really, because I was working on my painting in between talking to the public. I did stay in contact for a long while with a journalist for CNN who did a little news video on my work at the d’Orsay Museum.
Vous avez rencontré des visiteurs venant du monde entier, y a t il une appréhension différente de l’œuvre suivant la provenance des visiteurs ?
YOU MET PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD. WAS THERE A DIFFERENT RESPONSE TO THE WORK DEPENDING ON THE VISITORS ?
Yes, the French and European visitors were definitely more accepting of the painting than American or Asian visitors, for instance.
Aviez-vous déjà copié une autre œuvre de Courbet ? Le fait de copier une œuvre de Courbet vous a –t-il permis de mieux comprendre sa technique ou sa peinture ?
HAD YOU EVER COPIED ANY WORKS BY COURBET ? DID THE FACT THAT YOU COPIED A WORK BY COURBET PERMIT YOU TO BETTER UNDERSTAND HIS TECHNIQUE OR HIS PAINTING ?
I have never copied a work of art before, and probably will never do so again. It was just an experience that presented itself to me quite unexpectedly. Of course, spending so many hours scrutinizing his every brush stroke did give me a deeper understanding of Courbet’s methods, and a greater appreciation of his virtuosity as a painter. It inspired me to find out more about Gustave Courbet, his life and his work.
Etiez-vous filmé en permanence pendant le copie? Combien d’heures d’images filmées pour votre documentaire de 12 minutes ? Les visiteurs avaient-t-il peur de vous approcher en voyant la caméra ?
WERE YOU BEING FILMED THE ENTIRE TIME YOU WERE MAKING THE COPY ? HOW MANY HOURS DID YOU FILM TO CREATE YOUR DOCUMENTARY OF 12 MINUTES ? DID THE PUBLIC SEEM SCARED TO APPROACH THE CAMERA ?
It was something of a miracle that I received permission to film for the duration of one day. I understand that now the museum does not even allow any photography at all. We were restricted with the type of camera allowed, and also we were not allowed to use any additional lighting. We filmed for about four or five hours and edited the footage into a 12 minute documentary. We asked permission to film from each person I spoke with.
Vous dites travailler actuellement sur un roman fiction sur Courbet, fruit de plusieurs années de recherche, cette expérience de copie et ces rencontres vous aident-elles à écrire votre ouvrage ?
L’Origine du monde est-elle le sujet de votre roman fiction ou l’œuvre de Courbet de manière plus général ?
YOU ARE WORKING ON A FICTIONALIZED NOVEL ON COURBET, A RESULT OF SEVERAL YEARS OF RESEARCH, YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND THE ENCOUNTERS YOU HAD SURROUNDING THIS PAINTING. IS L’ORIGINE DU MONDE THE SUBJECT OF YOUR BOOK OR A MORE GENERALIZED NOVEL ON COURBET ?
I am writing a novel called Dancing with Courbet. It is a good title (thanks to my husband) because it describes the way the book dances between my story about copying L’Origine du monde, and Courbet’s life story. L’Origine was the point of intersection between our two lives.
I have done an enormous amount of research – I have read Petra Chu’s translated Letters of Gustave Courbet several times, as well as the writings of modern historians such as Linda Nochlin and Thierry Savatier. My intention for the book is to bring Gustave Courbet to the attention of contemporary readers outside of France who may never have heard of him. I think it will also have a great appeal to French readers. His life was fascinating, passionate, exciting and even tragic.
Vous êtes artiste plasticien, né à Paris, vous avez beaucoup voyagé et vivez actuellement aux Etats-Unis, cette expérience de copiste a –t-elle influencé votre travail personnel ?
YOU ARE A VISAL ARTIST, BORN IN PARIS, YOU TRAVELLED EXTENSIVELY AND NOW LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES. HAS THIS EXPERIENCE AS A COPYIST INFLUENCED YOUR WORK ?
My experience did indeed influence my work. I became obsessed with this painting and with Gustave Courbet himself. It was a type of reverse process – I did not start out with a passionate interest. The passionate interest came after my encounter with L’Origine. I now spend half my time writing my book and half my time in the studio, lately investigating themes of identity and the place of women in society.
Parlez-nous de L’Origine c’est moi ?
TALK A BIT ABOUT ‘L’ORIGINE C’EST MOI (I AM THE ORIGIN)
When I returned to Washington DC after completing my copy, I was searching for a creative way to express to what extent I had internalized this painting, the way I identified with it to the point where I had almost become the model in the painting. I incorporated my copy of L’Origine with photographs I had taken of various parts of my body. The result is a disjointed grid of photography and painting that together represents a whole. I call this work L’Origine c’est moi.
Special publication May 2014 'L'Origine du monde laid bare'
Interview with artist Lilianne Milgrom
Pourquoi avez-vous choisi de copier L’Origine du monde ? Que représente pour vous cette œuvre ?
WHY DID YOU CHOOSE TO COPY l’ORIGINE DU MONDE (THE ORIGIN OF THE WORLD? WHAT DOES THIS WORK REPRESENT FOR YOU ?
It was actually a girlfriend of mine who said that I did not choose this painting – it chose me. She is absolutely correct. I originally had no intention at all of copying L’Origine du monde, but when I stood in front of the painting I knew that there was a special connection between us. I think you could say it was a coup de foudre. Courbet has presented us with an unsettling and paradoxically complex image of Woman. For me, L’Origine represents this physical and spiritual duality.
Vous dites être la première copiste officiel de L’Origine du monde, pendant combien de temps avez-vous copier l’œuvre ? Combien d’heures par jour ?
YOU SAY YOU ARE THE FIRST OFFICIAL COPYIST OF L’ORIGINE DU MONDE. HOW MUCH TIME DID YOU SPEND COPYING THE WORK ? HOW MANY HOURS PER DAY ?
Yes, the Bureau of Copiestes told me that no-one before me had requested permission to copy L’Origine du monde, which surprised me. I spent seven weeks at the d’Orsay Museum, and I worked about four hours a day, five days a week. The museum has a rule that copyists cannot work after one o’clock, so even if I was not ready to stop, I had to complete my work at that time every day.
Quels ont été les conditions du Musée d’Orsay pour vous autoriser en tant que copistes ? Le format de votre copie est-il identique à l’originale ? Avez-vous enquêter sur la technique de Courbet avant de copier ?
WHAT WERE THE CONDITIONS SET BY THE D’ORSAY MUSEUM FOR AUTHORIZING YOU AS A COPYIST ? WAS THE FORMAT YOU WORKED ON IDENTICAL TO THE ORIGINA ? DID YOU INVESTIGATE COURBET’S TECHNIQUES BEFORE STARTING YOUR COPY ?
There is quite a rigorous procedure involved in getting permission to copy a work at the museum. One has to submit documents regarding one’s professional status, a letter from one’s embassy (if you are a foreign visitor), signed contracts and various other papers. The museum has a strict rule that the size of the copy must be at least fifteen percent smaller or larger than the original, and then they stamp the museum’s logo on the blank canvas to prevent any chance of forgery. As far as investigating Courbet’s techniques, I must admit I was totally ignorant about his methods when I began my copy.
Quand et comment avez-vous eu connaissance du tableau ? L’aviez-vous vu à New-York en 1988 (Brooklyn) ou à Ornans en 1991 ?
WHEN AND HOW DID YOU ENCOUNTER THE PAINTING ? DID YOU VIEW IT FIRST IN BROOKLYN IN 1988 OR IN ORNANS IN 1991 ?
As an artist, I had seen images of this iconic painting over the years, but I had never seen it with my own eyes until I saw it at the d’Orsay Museum in 2011.
Quelles ont été les réactions des visiteurs en vous voyant en plein travail ? Vous posait-il des questions ? Avez-vous été confronté à des réactions extrémistes ? Y-a-t-il un échange avec un visiteur qui vous a particulièrement touché ?
WHAT WERE THE REACTIONS OF VISITORS TO SEEING YOU WORKING ? DID THEY ASK QUESTIONS ? DID YOU EXPERIENCE ANY EXTREME REACTIONS ? WAS THERE A PARTICULAR EXCHANGE THAT TOUCHED YOU ?
The reaction was usually one of great interest and curiosity, and sometimes shock or amusement. The visitors asked me a lot of different questions, but many people wanted to know why I was copying this particular painting. There were several incidents with men who made insinuating comments to me but in general, the public was very respectful.
The one incident that I remember very well–and it is included in my documentary–was a French grandmother who brought her granddaughter. She pointed out to the little girl that the painting represented where all babies come from. Her granddaughter said « No ! Mommy had a Caesarian ! » It was a charming moment.
Les personnes qui ont échangé avec vous étaient-elles plutôt des femmes ou des hommes, de quel age….quel type de public ? Pour vous dire quoi ?
THE PEOPLE YOU HAD EXCHANGES WITH, WERE THEY MOSTLY MEN OR WOMEN, WHAT AGES…WHAT TYPE OF PUBLIC ? WHAT DID THEY SAY TO YOU ?
Actually, I would say that I engaged with people of all ages, men and women, people who were knowledgeable about art, and those who were not. But it seemed that women were less intimidated to talk with me. We discussed what this painting represented to them and whether they could identify with it.
Les questions posaient-elles sur votre travail de copistes ou sur l’œuvre elle-même et ce qu’elle représente pour un homme ou pour une femme ?
WERE THE QUESTIONS MAINLY ABOUT YOUR WORK AS A COPYIST OR ABOUT THE WORK ITSELF AND WHAT IT REPRESENTS FOR BOTH MEN AND WOMEN ?
At first, people asked me why I was copying this particular painting. And then I would open the discussion up to their responses to L’Origine itself.
Le fait que vous soyez en train de copier cette œuvre pendant les heures d’ouverture, cela a –t-il amené plus de visiteurs à la regarder ? ou à passer plus de temps devant le tableau ?
THE FACT THAT YOU SPENT HOURS COPYING THIS WORK – DID THIS CAUSE VISITORS TO LOOK AT YOU ? OR TO PASS MORE TIME IN FRONT OF THE WORK ?
I can definitely tell you that copying this painting in public was a type of performance art. I did not anticipate that I would be the source of so much attention. It occurred to me that there was an interesting dynamic here – Courbet gazed upon his model when he painted L’Origine, and I, in turn, was casting my gaze upon his painting, and now the museum visitors were looking at me copying his copy of the model. Interesting, isn’t it ?
Avez-vous gardé des contacts avec vos rencontres ?
DO YOU STILL MAINTAIN ANY CONTACT WITH THOSE WHO YOU MET DURING YOUR TIME COPYING ?
Not really, because I was working on my painting in between talking to the public. I did stay in contact for a long while with a journalist for CNN who did a little news video on my work at the d’Orsay Museum.
Vous avez rencontré des visiteurs venant du monde entier, y a t il une appréhension différente de l’œuvre suivant la provenance des visiteurs ?
YOU MET PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD. WAS THERE A DIFFERENT RESPONSE TO THE WORK DEPENDING ON THE VISITORS ?
Yes, the French and European visitors were definitely more accepting of the painting than American or Asian visitors, for instance.
Aviez-vous déjà copié une autre œuvre de Courbet ? Le fait de copier une œuvre de Courbet vous a –t-il permis de mieux comprendre sa technique ou sa peinture ?
HAD YOU EVER COPIED ANY WORKS BY COURBET ? DID THE FACT THAT YOU COPIED A WORK BY COURBET PERMIT YOU TO BETTER UNDERSTAND HIS TECHNIQUE OR HIS PAINTING ?
I have never copied a work of art before, and probably will never do so again. It was just an experience that presented itself to me quite unexpectedly. Of course, spending so many hours scrutinizing his every brush stroke did give me a deeper understanding of Courbet’s methods, and a greater appreciation of his virtuosity as a painter. It inspired me to find out more about Gustave Courbet, his life and his work.
Etiez-vous filmé en permanence pendant le copie? Combien d’heures d’images filmées pour votre documentaire de 12 minutes ? Les visiteurs avaient-t-il peur de vous approcher en voyant la caméra ?
WERE YOU BEING FILMED THE ENTIRE TIME YOU WERE MAKING THE COPY ? HOW MANY HOURS DID YOU FILM TO CREATE YOUR DOCUMENTARY OF 12 MINUTES ? DID THE PUBLIC SEEM SCARED TO APPROACH THE CAMERA ?
It was something of a miracle that I received permission to film for the duration of one day. I understand that now the museum does not even allow any photography at all. We were restricted with the type of camera allowed, and also we were not allowed to use any additional lighting. We filmed for about four or five hours and edited the footage into a 12 minute documentary. We asked permission to film from each person I spoke with.
Vous dites travailler actuellement sur un roman fiction sur Courbet, fruit de plusieurs années de recherche, cette expérience de copie et ces rencontres vous aident-elles à écrire votre ouvrage ?
L’Origine du monde est-elle le sujet de votre roman fiction ou l’œuvre de Courbet de manière plus général ?
YOU ARE WORKING ON A FICTIONALIZED NOVEL ON COURBET, A RESULT OF SEVERAL YEARS OF RESEARCH, YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND THE ENCOUNTERS YOU HAD SURROUNDING THIS PAINTING. IS L’ORIGINE DU MONDE THE SUBJECT OF YOUR BOOK OR A MORE GENERALIZED NOVEL ON COURBET ?
I am writing a novel called Dancing with Courbet. It is a good title (thanks to my husband) because it describes the way the book dances between my story about copying L’Origine du monde, and Courbet’s life story. L’Origine was the point of intersection between our two lives.
I have done an enormous amount of research – I have read Petra Chu’s translated Letters of Gustave Courbet several times, as well as the writings of modern historians such as Linda Nochlin and Thierry Savatier. My intention for the book is to bring Gustave Courbet to the attention of contemporary readers outside of France who may never have heard of him. I think it will also have a great appeal to French readers. His life was fascinating, passionate, exciting and even tragic.
Vous êtes artiste plasticien, né à Paris, vous avez beaucoup voyagé et vivez actuellement aux Etats-Unis, cette expérience de copiste a –t-elle influencé votre travail personnel ?
YOU ARE A VISAL ARTIST, BORN IN PARIS, YOU TRAVELLED EXTENSIVELY AND NOW LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES. HAS THIS EXPERIENCE AS A COPYIST INFLUENCED YOUR WORK ?
My experience did indeed influence my work. I became obsessed with this painting and with Gustave Courbet himself. It was a type of reverse process – I did not start out with a passionate interest. The passionate interest came after my encounter with L’Origine. I now spend half my time writing my book and half my time in the studio, lately investigating themes of identity and the place of women in society.
Parlez-nous de L’Origine c’est moi ?
TALK A BIT ABOUT ‘L’ORIGINE C’EST MOI (I AM THE ORIGIN)
When I returned to Washington DC after completing my copy, I was searching for a creative way to express to what extent I had internalized this painting, the way I identified with it to the point where I had almost become the model in the painting. I incorporated my copy of L’Origine with photographs I had taken of various parts of my body. The result is a disjointed grid of photography and painting that together represents a whole. I call this work L’Origine c’est moi.